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Re: Parents

Post by FennecFyre »

nebulasparks37 wrote:Well, personally, I don't really believe my parent's parenting skills are the best.

Have any of you read "Why Chinese Parents Are Superior" by Amy Chua?
I do not believe in that kind of parenting, but Amy Chua has a point - China is beating the US at almost everything. Sometimes I think that we need to be more strict on things such as academics. My parents are strict on the wrong things - I know health is important, but giving up your grades in favor of it just doesn't fly with me. I'm asian, and all my grades have been above a 90, and I try for above a 97. But this is of my own accord - my parents have nothing to do with it. Sometimes I wish that they were stricter on my extracurriculars, since I have no interest in any. I maintain my good grades, but somehow I can't bring myself to practice for anything else. I've almost quit everything because of this, and my parents allow me to. Its a bit too late for me to start again - I would never be able to excel at it in such a short time.
I'd like to shove something sharp down Chua's throat. She needs to shut up and learn that having a bond with your family is just as important as academics. Also, if they're so superior, why aren't they noble enough to NOT FRICKIN BRAG? /endrage

My parents are pretty cool. Dad is pretty lax about stuff as long as Sis and I get along, while Mom makes sure we do our homework, take a shower, etc. They bug me sometimes, but I love 'em.
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Re: Parents

Post by TxCat »

nebulasparks37 wrote:Well, personally, I don't really believe my parent's parenting skills are the best.

Have any of you read "Why Chinese Parents Are Superior" by Amy Chua?
I did and had to take step back at some of the harshness which most would consider borderline child abuse or neglect. For reference to the others, here's the link:

Why Chinese Mothers are Superior by Amy Chua

I'll include snip from the article itself:
All the same, even when Western parents think they're being strict, they usually don't come close to being Chinese mothers. For example, my Western friends who consider themselves strict make their children practice their instruments 30 minutes every day. An hour at most. For a Chinese mother, the first hour is the easy part. It's hours two and three that get tough.
Amy Chua has a point - China is beating the US at almost everything. Sometimes I think that we need to be more strict on things such as academics.
I used to be an English teacher. Note the tense: used to be. I am no longer teaching because some parents don't seem to care as much about academics as they care about having a babysitter. I saw two basic kinds of parents (three, if you count the kind who never showed up to conferences at all): the parent(s) who were convinced their child could do no wrong and I ought to specially bend the grading rules for them; and the kind of parents who basically told me that they didn't care what their kids were doing academically as long as they could park them somewhere that wasn't in their supervision for eight hours.

I also saw an alarming number of children, particularly among those from minorities and economically depressed sections of the city, who were simply not allowed to achieve academically. Their parents viewed learning as worthless and a number of them were physically punished for trying to better themselves.

Sadly, most parents no longer seem to think that a good education --- or at least one which will produce a productive adult in society --- is important. Some of those I dealt with proudly told me that they were on state and federal subsistence and they fully expected same for their children when they became adults. Some of the children had picked up that attitude as well. The boys particularly all seemed to think that they could make it into the various professional sports and not need their education at all. Pointing out that those athletes had college degrees and professions to fall back upon didn't help.

I am Native American (Osage, to be exact). That entire avenue of learning and heredity was closed to me. I spent much of my academic career, because the Osage are tall and lighter skinned, being 'one of the white folks'. My mother was more concerned that my skin stay pale and that my hair stay strawberry blond rather than progressing to the rich red mahogany color more consistent with my heritage. I was always attending a string of dermatology and beauty appointments to keep those appearances, not to mention the diets. The Osage are a LARGE people, with some verified records of their men and women being nearly seven feet tall with thick, dense bone structure. She had me on diets from the time I was nine and constantly nagged me about my food intake to the point that I developed an eating disorder.

Academics? I was in everything: drama club, speech and debate, two bands, choir, art classes. My true interests, reading and writing, were regarded as unacceptable areas in which to excel. I had expressed some interest in journalism but I wanted to proofread articles and help arrange the school paper. My mother took me out of that activity because "I didn't have the body for it". I wasn't allowed to continue my activities with the school radio either, even though I had a passable newscaster's voice.

I don't remember ever having any time for myself.

It was somewhat of a double standard as well. I had a few personally chosen friends she would allow over to play or to do homework or to visit. To these she acted like the perfect mother. There were cupcakes and soda (I never got any). She listened to their problems and advised them. Some of them, who had absent parents, would actually come to her when they were in trouble and she'd help them out --- either go to court for them or give them a place to sleep which was safe. They all thought she was perfect. She was "Ma Wolfe" to them or "Mom". I had to address her as 'ma'am" and the one or two times I'd tried expressing affection, I'd been rebuffed.

I also had care of a younger sister with delayed development. My mother wasn't her mother either, I was.

These are all burdens I still have to juggle as an adult. When I got married the first time, no one in the family spoke to me for almost three years because I was supposed to be the spinster sister, to remain at home and take care of my mother and grandparents. When he turned out to be abusive, it was always my fault. She sent me back to him each and every time with an admonition to be a better wife so he wouldn't hurt me.

Eventually I had to move 2000 miles away from her to make my point. We now have a fairly decent relationship, though if we're together for any length of time she does try to take over my life. I'll admit that my lifestyle is partially the result of this upbringing; I wanted to be anything but the example she'd set for me. While I've developed the same open heart and good listening skills, I apply them fairly to everyone whom I value (and some I don't, I'm a bit of a sucker).

You'll notice there's no father in this story. My Pa was employed with the US Army in their intelligence division (that's a fancy way of saying he was a spy). He died in a line of duty accident when I was twelve years old. That may have been a factor in my Ma's own behavior toward her children; she never did function as well without him and when he was gone she went to pieces. Her life became about leaving a legacy he'd be proud of instead of valuing us for our own merits.

I do have to say that this man, in the relatively short time he was on the planet, gave me the things I consider best about myself:

- a love of and need to understand other cultures
- a thirst for knowledge and books
- an appreciation of the natural environment (which later led to my religious choices)
- an appreciation for those who serve in the military
- patriotism (not the political stuff, but a true love of my country and its history, warts and all)
- an independent mind and the will to speak it
- a love of the arts
- a love of museums and historical monuments
- a thirst for history, archeology, anthropology and other humanities
- a love of a good debate
- a love of unusual foods and different cuisines
- my love of rose gardens

The other parental figure in my life was my grandfather. He was a civil engineer, a big Swede, and the first in his family ever to go to college. If you're at all curious or have been out west, most of those dam and reservoir projects were designed and overseen by him in their building (that includes Hoover Dam, Crystal Dam, and the Rifle Gap project). He gave me:

- my work ethic (he told me when I got my first job to always go to work with a smile, say 'Yes, ma'am' and 'No, sir' to my bosses, to be willing to do more than just those tasks assigned me, and to take a positive and helpful attitude to the work place)

- my love of puzzles and strategy games
- my interest in aquariums and natural fish habitats
- my interest in fishing
- my Norse heritage (I was the priestess who helped him renounce his Christianity on his deathbed at his request)
- a respect for my ancestors and the dead
- in interest in the truth

I am not now and never will be an 'official' parent. I do what I can for my foster son, who was ripped illegally from our care after just a year (he's sixteen now). I like to think I imparted some of these ideals to him so that he has something by which he can guide his life.

The one thing I would change, I cannot: I do wish my father had not died. I think that if he had not my Ma's and my relationship would not have been as rocky as it was.
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Re: Parents

Post by Kynali »

1) What things have your parents done which you consider good parenting skills?
My parents have been there for me. They have gotten me all that i ask for within their budget, they loved me and cared for me. The best thing, I think, was how they introduced me into subjects that i needed to form my own opinion about. I was able to choose what i believed and what i preferred with little to no interference.
2) What would you have them do differently and why?
A) I would have my dad try less mental and more emotional. We've butted heads several times because I was going off emotion, and he could not see past the logic or mental part of it. He doesn't always understand what he says does have an impact on me and that some of the stuff really does hurt.

B) I would have my mom Less negative. I feel like I am fighting either a guilt trip or her trying to tear herself down. It makes me sad and I have noticed myself doing the same which isn't good.

C) I'd change how my dad approached discipline. I got spankings. Currently quite afraid of him and the threats of me getting them as I grew up. I'd also stop his threatening lines. He finds it funny saying things that are not ok. Like shooting my dog or kicking me out of the house.

D) I would want my mom to back off on how I look. She is obsessed with if what i look like is good enough. I got whined at for years because i didn't feel comfortable wearing a real bra. And I still feel bad about how I look because i don't think i measure up.

3) If you're planning on children yourself, how do you plan on parenting them? Will you use any of the rules, restrictions, and disciplines your parents used for you? Why or why not?

I plan to instill good discipline. I would NOT spank my children. When I was younger I defended spankings but now I see how much off an effect it had on me. I will not be as strict and sheltering to my kids but I would introduced certain things as they get older. Totally keeping them away from soda. Sorry but I want them to build a love of water before soda. I want to have them brush their teeth and blah blah blah but I will take a different approach. My own mom was very coddlely. I didn't do much for myself and let mom do everything for me. Unlike my parents, I want to get my kids into whatever they want, but be involved in something. I was let slide because I didn't like doing this or that but now I wish my mom and dad would have pushed me to try things. I'd check for ADD as soon as I can. It is still a struggle to deal with ADD in school, I want to safeguard them from having to go through that frustration and let them developed their talents in a way they can express it fully.

4) Is parenting necessary? If so, why? If not, why not? If you consider yourself capable of taking care of yourself without parental supervision (or, for those of us who are grown, without parental advice), how do you do it?

It is very necessary. Without parents there is no compass which kids can align themselves. With parents there is structure, there is a safe place, and people who are to be strongholds when things get shaky. I know for sure I'd be nothing without what they got for me. I could never do without them even if I have things I want to change.

5) Have you thought about what will happen to your parents when they get older? Will you provide for them or help them make arrangements if the time comes when they can't or won't take care of themselves?
Yep. Yes I will. If they need my assistance I'd happily save up to help make their life easier.

6) Just how valuable IS it to have a parental figure available throughout one's lifetime?

It is extremely valuable. It helps keep us humble in times of pride, support when life gets hard, and love just because they love you not for any other reason.

7) Do you have a good relationship with your parents? Why or why not? What would you do differently? Do you think you'll ever have a good relationship if you don't? Is there ever a time when you think you might want a relationship of any sort with your parents?
Right now I think that I have an Ok relationship. I say this because I don't think it is good but it is certainly better then friends I've seen. Not sure what I would do different. I guess I would try to be more open with them with things and admit when i need help. Ya. I want I now.

8) What do you think happens when there's no parental authority present at all in a child's life? If you grew up that way, how did it affect you?
I think that they grow up missing a part of their identity. They miss the bond that is there, and they miss the advise and counsel. I've seen people grow up fine without parents and turn out fine. Others I've seen go wild because they have nothing to root who they are and their pride in their identity. They usually get in lots of trouble real fast.
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Re: Parents

Post by Keolah »

I was raised by my grandparents. When I was born, my mom was 14 and my dad was 18, so I wound up with my mom's parents to raise. I never really saw much of my parents. I lived with my grandparents until I was 26, but I was very glad to have moved out finally. They weren't horrible or anything, but certain things they did were really starting to get to me... not the least of which was the fact that they never quite got over the fact that I wasn't 10 anymore.

Among the things which bothered me most... My grandmother's insistance of accusing me of lying constantly, about everything. "Did you brush your teeth?" "Yes." "You go to hell for lying!" I got sick of hearing "You go to hell for lying!" several times a day. Especially when in no instance it was used was I ever lying.

She thought me lazy if I wasn't awake by 8 am, regardless of how much sleep I actually got or whether I even needed to be anywhere that day.

She apparently expected me to be psychic. If I wasn't standing around waiting to help with something without being asked, I was lazy, of course. No matter how many times I said if they wanted something, just tell me, they'd wind up just doing it themselves and then trying to guilt me on it later despite not even having asked me to do anything.

She used to discipline me with a used flyswatter. I didn't care about being spanked so much, it was the fact that she used that disgusting, filthy thing to do it with that bothered me.

She had some rather weird ideas about food... such as "Never eat after 8 pm." (Regardless of when you're actually going to bed?) "Everything white is bad for you." And replacing oil in brownies with applesauce, which just wound up making them disgusting. She never let me even try to help in the kitchen with anything for the most part, despite my expressing a desire on several occasions to learn to cook... result: I can barely cook ramen, and now no longer care as my boyfriend likes to cook anyway.

It wasn't all that bad, to be sure. On the upside, they tended to respect my privacy, didn't constantly barge into my room without knocking or interrupt my gaming randomly. (How much of a geek am I that I think turning off the machine you're playing without giving you a chance to save or finish what you're doing is a much ruder thing to do than... well, anything else I can think of, actually...) I'm also grateful that they don't expect great-grandchildren from me, nor me to take care of them as they get older.

In my opinion, very much my opinion, I don't believe that many parents are the least bit qualified to be parents, and are very likely a big part of what's wrong with society. I know I wouldn't be, and I'm certainly not going to be doing it.
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Re: Parents

Post by Piney »

nebulasparks37 wrote:Well, personally, I don't really believe my parent's parenting skills are the best.

Have any of you read "Why Chinese Parents Are Superior" by Amy Chua?
I do not believe in that kind of parenting, but Amy Chua has a point - China is beating the US at almost everything. Sometimes I think that we need to be more strict on things such as academics. My parents are strict on the wrong things - I know health is important, but giving up your grades in favor of it just doesn't fly with me. I'm asian, and all my grades have been above a 90, and I try for above a 97. But this is of my own accord - my parents have nothing to do with it. Sometimes I wish that they were stricter on my extracurriculars, since I have no interest in any. I maintain my good grades, but somehow I can't bring myself to practice for anything else. I've almost quit everything because of this, and my parents allow me to. Its a bit too late for me to start again - I would never be able to excel at it in such a short time.
My dad is a little obsessed about that book and I personally think that she's trying to get the wrong idea across.

You can be uber good at instruments, be really good at school, but what else? If she's anything like my parents, the children won't know how to communicate, make friends, and be good at anything else other than academics. It may be because she doesn't understand the American culture or she genuinely doesn't think that those skills are important. And I do agree that pushing your kid to do the best in school will be good for him/her in the long run. But it shouldn't be the only thing a parent focuses on. There are some important things that can only be learned by letting yourself loose once in a while.

I could talk more about the subject, but I'll just end my post with a comment I remember reading when this article was brought up on CNN. Someone said that this is why Chinese will be makers but never inventors.
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Re: Parents

Post by Imposibibble »

Piney wrote: My dad is a little obsessed about that book and I personally think that she's trying to get the wrong idea across.

You can be uber good at instruments, be really good at school, but what else? If she's anything like my parents, the children won't know how to communicate, make friends, and be good at anything else other than academics. It may be because she doesn't understand the American culture or she genuinely doesn't think that those skills are important. And I do agree that pushing your kid to do the best in school will be good for him/her in the long run. But it shouldn't be the only thing a parent focuses on. There are some important things that can only be learned by letting yourself loose once in a while.

I could talk more about the subject, but I'll just end my post with a comment I remember reading when this article was brought up on CNN. Someone said that this is why Chinese will be makers but never inventors.
My dad is kinda the same way as her actually, just not nearly as extreme.
I wanted to play tennis when I was younger. But he wouldn't let me. Why? Because I did not plan to be a professional tennis player so learning the sport is useless. A hobby of mine was drawing, which he put a stop to by throwing away my crayons, colored pencils and markers. It was a "useless" hobby, he said. My sister wanted to learn how to play the guitar. But no, she didn't know how to sing and so has no musical talent. To him, every thing you do now will be for some big goal in the future. Hobbies are just a waste of time and prevents you from going towards that goal.
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Re: Parents

Post by GrowlingCupcake »

nebulasparks37 wrote:Well, personally, I don't really believe my parent's parenting skills are the best.

Have any of you read "Why Chinese Parents Are Superior" by Amy Chua?
I do not believe in that kind of parenting, but Amy Chua has a point - China is beating the US at almost everything. Sometimes I think that we need to be more strict on things such as academics. My parents are strict on the wrong things - I know health is important, but giving up your grades in favor of it just doesn't fly with me. I'm asian, and all my grades have been above a 90, and I try for above a 97. But this is of my own accord - my parents have nothing to do with it. Sometimes I wish that they were stricter on my extracurriculars, since I have no interest in any. I maintain my good grades, but somehow I can't bring myself to practice for anything else. I've almost quit everything because of this, and my parents allow me to. Its a bit too late for me to start again - I would never be able to excel at it in such a short time.
And parenting like that is why most of the kids I taught here do not understand social situations and have anxiety issues about the smallest things. Why the behave inappropriately, why they burst into tears during classes, why they hate their parents, why they have no social skills, etc.

My parents tried raising me similarly to that. Practice the piano for hours on end. If I got 95, it was always "Why didn't you get 100?" What did it give me? Depression, hatred and the unconscious need to spite them by failing at everything they wanted, a major thing when it was also something I wanted. I am also incapable of making friends half the time, have horrible self-esteem issues and if I hadn't met my first partner when I did, would be dead by now. Oh, and I quit playing the piano ages ago.

There are reasons why psychologists/psychiatrists advise not raising your kids that way. Showing them they can achieve something is good. But there has to be recognition of the achievement.

So the question is... Is academics everything? For me, hell no. I've failed out of college once and dropped out the other. Do I consider myself a failure? Sometimes, when I am in my more depressed moods, yes. Other times? Most times? No. It's more important that I grow as a person, and like the person I am.

Edit: http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2011/ ... o-readers/
Just some less sensational, somewhat less controversial things about it. Amy Chua also says "much of the book is about my decision to retreat (but only partially) from the strict immigrant model". So... perhaps acknowledgement about how middle ground would be better than that? Her approach didn't work with her younger daughter so I guess it's really about it not being one-size-fits-all.
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Re: Parents

Post by Kestrad »

nebulasparks37 wrote:Well, personally, I don't really believe my parent's parenting skills are the best.

Have any of you read "Why Chinese Parents Are Superior" by Amy Chua?
I do not believe in that kind of parenting, but Amy Chua has a point - China is beating the US at almost everything. Sometimes I think that we need to be more strict on things such as academics. My parents are strict on the wrong things - I know health is important, but giving up your grades in favor of it just doesn't fly with me. I'm asian, and all my grades have been above a 90, and I try for above a 97. But this is of my own accord - my parents have nothing to do with it. Sometimes I wish that they were stricter on my extracurriculars, since I have no interest in any. I maintain my good grades, but somehow I can't bring myself to practice for anything else. I've almost quit everything because of this, and my parents allow me to. Its a bit too late for me to start again - I would never be able to excel at it in such a short time.
Oh god, that woman is crazy. No extracurricular activities at all? Being forced to play the violin and piano, whether you want to or not? There is no such thing as a perfect parent, but rigid tyrany does not a good parent make. How do you develop a voice and a sense of things you are interested in if you cannot do extracurriculars? How do you discover a talent for some instrument if your options are limited to only two? There is such a thing as being too extreme.

Thanks to Amy Chua, my friends are now under the impression that my parents must be crazy because I'm Chinese. No, my parents were not that strict. They did want me to get good grades, but came to accept that there are certain subjects that I just simply have trouble with, especially once you get to college-level stuff (and I was taking those in high school). I played the piano not because I was forced, but because I wanted to, and they got me a piano despite money being tight. They encouraged me to do extracurriculars with the belief that they would help me develop in a way that straight academics cannot.

Of course I have my disagreements with my parents, and of course their style is very different from, say, what a white friend of mine might be used to. My boyfriend, for example, cannot understand why my parents would want me to call home every night. But there is no such thing as a perfect parent.
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Re: Parents

Post by SilentPsycho »

Kestrad wrote: My boyfriend, for example, cannot understand why my parents would want me to call home every night.
To be honest, that's a trait that can be found across the bored. I'm as white as snow, yet my mother has said that she doesn't mind if I go out somewhere, or stay at a friend's house, as long as I phone her and let her know. While I was at university, she'd start to panic if I hadn't phoned home after a few days.

I think showing a concern over where your children are is a part of good parenting. I've seen parents who didn't know or care where their children were, and I would have hated that lack of attention as a child, even if I never admitted it to my mum.
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