Current events - Guidelines 1st Post.

[Soleil]

Why hello events thread!

With all the "Osama dead!" hype going around, inquiring minds would like to know: what do yall think of the people who are... saying it is uncivil/barbaric/disregard for human life for the United States (and whoever else!) to be "celebrating" his death?

I personally don't see it as a celebration of a human's death. I see it as a celebration of the end of a reign of terror. He reveled in the death of anyone be it man, woman, or child... and now people seem to not worry about it. Regardless of whether his organization exists still, people just... seem more at ease with him dead.

I do see where everyone is coming from with it though, it does seem wrong if you step back and don't think about what he did (hard as it is) to us as a country.

Are we wrong for wanting that "eye for an eye" revenge for all those lives lost on 9/11?

[wolfeyedangel]

True revenge is dangerous, unfortunately, telling the difference between justice and revenge can be difficult (especially when all you have is the news media to go by. They love spinning stories.)

From where I sit, I'm relieved. He was a clever individual and very dangerous and I'm glad he's out of the equation. I'd rather he have been brought in for trial, but in a firefight that's not always possible. The Analyst in me is more worried about who gets his top slot (and how they'll try to 'justify' their foot in his shoes) or if his LT's are going to break up the group (Hopefully rendering it less efficient) with their internal feuding.

Personally: I've seen very little rampant celebration, (though mind you I've not been near a TV) and I more get a sense of relief rather than rejoicing, and the rejoicing seems to be individuals rather than the culture.

Historical note for the record: an eye for an eye was originally instituted to stop a culture of vengeance. Action. Consequence. Done.

~Wolf <----Not mod mode

[Soleil]

True revenge is dangerous, unfortunately, telling the difference between justice and revenge can be difficult (especially when all you have is the news media to go by. They love spinning stories.)

From where I sit, I'm relieved. He was a clever individual and very dangerous and I'm glad he's out of the equation. I'd rather he have been brought in for trial, but in a firefight that's not always possible. The Analyst in me is more worried about who gets his top slot (and how they'll try to 'justify' their foot in his shoes) or if his LT's are going to break up the group (Hopefully rendering it less efficient) with their internal feuding.

I think that's on a lot of people's minds. They're wondering... what now? Will there be a successor who wants to justify the death by more American deaths or will there be a mass break up of the organization because they've been feuding within themselves? Only time will tell that for sure, the latter is the more appealing option by far.

Personally: I've seen very little rampant celebration, (though mind you I've not been near a TV) and I more get a sense of relief rather than rejoicing, and the rejoicing seems to be individuals rather than the culture.

That's pretty much how I see it. It's not so much "OMG WE KILLED HIM YESSSS!" as much as it is "Oh it's over.. finally.." It's a relief more than a celebration. People are happy because they have that sense of relief.

[TxCat]

I've been studying the Middle East for decades now (its history was formerly my minor and, as I've said in other threads, I've actually known some of the families who are principle political players such as the Husseins and the royal Saudi family) and the only thing I feel is a kind of relief, the way you might feel when they finally catch a long sought after serial killer here in the US.

It is not in me to rejoice over someone's death; whether he was an enemy to the US or not, he was still someone's father, grandfather, son, uncle, etc. That means, particularly in the Middle East where they so value the family structure, that someone will be missing him and will be grieving for his death. We don't get to choose whom we love and it may well be, as with serial killers, that his family had no real idea of his atrocities. We don't know, and that's why I don't gloat over his death. As with serial killers (and in a way I would argue he is one), the families of the perpetrators are just as much victims as those they wronged.

I am not, however, certain that the US is actually responsible for his death. I have looked over the news feeds world wide and the only sources I'm seeing come from the US government, including the DNA verification. I find it far more likely, given that he hasn't been in the news in his own country much, that Osama died of natural causes. It was known, for instance, that he had kidney problems which are not easily fixable and it was suspected he may have had Morfan's. That being the case, it's highly likely that his heart just gave out or his kidneys failed.

I think it's a bit much for our President here to basically be saying that HE is the one who brought Osama to justice and I think it's about to be used as a re-election platform in spite of the fact that our President still has no real military background or knowledge and certainly couldn't have given the advice needed to snare someone like Osama. If, indeed, the US did kill him then credit must go where credit is due: to the armed forces who carried out their jobs and the generals and other high ranking military officers over there who knew how to plan out the attacks and give the orders.

I was horrified to see Osama had been buried at sea. That's rather anathema to those of the Muslim persuasion, as I understand their sacred proceedings. The body must be wrapped in white linen, must go in a grave, and must be buried facing Mecca. None of those conditions can be met with a sea burial. I do realize he was considered a criminal but even our criminals here are allowed their religious beliefs and their bodies are disposed of accordingly after execution. It seems to me it wouldn't have hurt anything to extend this small courtesy.

Osama's death doesn't end it. You can't end what has started --- a revolution to bring the Islamic countries back under the control of their own people according to their laws and their religious rules. I hold little hope that the US will pull out and let history take its course, but I DO hope. This has been a long time coming. These people have been considered the property of one first world country or another (and I use that in the proper economic sense, not in the manner in which it's more commonly used to mean "any non-Western country") since before World War I and it's time they were allowed once more to guide their own destinies.

That, I'm certain will be fought and sabotaged (if anyone is curious, I could give a short list of legitimate resources which cover the struggle in a balanced manner) because Great Britain, the US, and France have a vested interest in the oil assets and in maintaining control of other resources. For that reason alone, we'll still be there trying to impose our version of government and democracy, a version which is fundamentally incompatible with ours.

[Soleil]

From I have heard, news and second-handed, it is being reported that Navy SEALs got into a fire-fight with Osama (and his men, I dunno that part) and he got shot. I don't know that it ever said WHO shot him, but he was shot and was killed on scene if the reports are truthful.

I still don't think they have released what country shot him though. Some articles last night were saying that it wasn't just U.S. navy seals there during the fight, there were other countries involved, but who knows.


It was on TV just now about who is replacing Bin Laden, one of his chief organizers and closest friends. And how the Arab leaders don't want the U.S. there anymore because they think our reason for being there is now over, which in a way is true. We did initially rush over there to hunt him down and kill him.... we just kind of... altered our course of action as time went on I think.
----
Separate but related:
Why the hell are we even fighting with Libya? All we seem to be doing is pissing off the people. The NATO bombing that killed the guy's (can't spell his name) son and some grandchildren has just made the citizens livid from what they are showing on TV.

We didn't go mess with Egypt did we? They did it all on their own... We need to just let Libya do whatever.
I was totally stressing that week so I can't remember if we got involved or not!

[BradTheMad]

I do not celebrate the dead of a human being but I celebrate the end of the threat he stood for. I was surprised that Chabad had an article on their website discussing this same issue; is it right to celebrate a dead even if it's somebody like Bin Laden?

As for what they did to the body, yes it was rude considering the religious Islamic rules but I do think the fear that his body would have been used as some sort of rallying point/sacred object was very real. They could have simply buried him and kept the location secret.

As for the ME situation oh boy...it's complicated.
Hamas showed its true colors yet again that they would mourn the loss of one of "Allah's chosen warriors" when word of Bin Laden's death came out... And geez we expect Fatah and Hamas to be great bosom buddies and set up a peaceful Palestinian state whilst leaving us Jews alone?! I'm sometimes surprised by the naivety of people. As long as terrorist organizations and tyrants rule those people there will never be peace, not for us nor for those that live there.

Everybody is so happy to see what is now called the Arab Spring but they forget to see that it's far from over and that the situations is critical; ready to either blossom into a great summer or revert back to an Arab ice age. Small, extremist Muslim groups that were forcefully put down before now rise up and might take control as they hold the money and weapons. The common people, many of them even secular will once again suffer.
Israel will be the first to feel its repercussions and has already been sending warnings about the increased tensions(Egypt has been particularly worrying)but since the West has been slowly withdrawing support from Israel over the last decade or so nobody really cares anyway. They fail to forget that the West is seen as allies of Israel by Islamic extremists whether they support Israel openly or not. For most of these groups simply by being born in the West you are an infidel and need to die (or convert).

Yes there are some great Arabs out there, some Muslims some non-Muslims, but as long as they are not the majority(whether by numbers or sheer political/military strength) in those countries I'm not proclaiming an Arab Spring. Trying to "help them" will only make matters worse IMO and is pretty much what TxCat already stated; just protecting our own selfish interests.
I'm all for them turning into fully Islamic countries with Sharia law and all if that is truly what the people wish; as long as they leave the rest of the world alone but the most vocal people there are not the kind of people I think will be satisfied with that. It's really difficult as I'm all for those countries having their own governments and all but cannot see that happening without interference from the West and the West has never shown compassion for the common man, only protecting its own interests *sigh*

The situation is really, really complex. I do believe that world peace will happen but we are far removed from it in this day and age.

[imafrickenleaf]

Mod Edit: No spam. If you are going to post here, read the rules of the Hall of Speakers and post calm, well thought out posts.

[ryer]

Did you hear about the Osama virus? I'd have fallen for it

Personally I don't think the issue is complicated at all. People will keep taking revenge for past things because that's their nature, at least until we get distracted long enough to forget about it. I don't think world peace is ever possible, unless we somehow evolve into a wise and compassionate species. Or until we're on death's brink.

[Destrauxe]

I personbally don't think it ment anything that he died really, I'm not going to celebrate the fact that my country hunted down and killed another human being. Sure, I am glad the threat he posed is gone and the families of 911 finally have some peacve of mind but that peace of mind is really based of revenge. Revenge is a dangerous thing and can really hurt people.
I'm also now waiting for another country to be attacked because he was killed. SO really it brought me no peace of mind...

[crazyflight]

Osama's death really isn't anything to be running around in the streets yelling "Go America!" It really shouldn't be celebrated, because it is life. Although the life of Osama bin Laden was a bad apple among the good people in this world, he has a life. There is no reason, ever, for anyone to celebrate about the loss of human life. It just doesn't seem right.

Osama killed many innocent people during his terrorist attacks and his leadership of Al Qaeda (Al Qaida, Al Qai'da... However you want to spell it). He was notorious and pernicious. He really did deserve to die, for all the lives he had taken away himself. But don't go cheering around in the streets, because that's just another life lost.