Pit Bulls

[Evilalice]

1.) Do you own a pit bull or a pit bull-type of dog?
I don't own a Pit Bull, doubt I ever will to be honest.

2.) If yes, then did you train them from a puppy?
Haven't had a Pit Bull before.

3.) How do you feel about certain breeds being banned?
I think there isn't really a legit point to it. I mean, it's not the dogs fault it could possibly attack. It's the owners fault. Usually a dog's behaviour depends on how you, as a trainer, treat it. If anything, something should be done about that.

4.) Do you think pit bulls are dangerous breeds?
Of course not. As I said before, it all depends on how the dog is raised.

5.) Why do you think someone might disagree with you?
Someone might disagree with my point of view because they may have witnessed a Pit Bull attack someone, or even possibly have been attacked themselves. Then there's those people who witness such a thing and immediately come to the conclusion that those dogs are life threatening. Then social media gets involved, once again spreading the dilemma. etc.

6.) Have you ever been attacked by a dog or know someone who has?
When I was a child I was attacked by a Dalmatian (I think thats what it was) it wasn't very badly though.

7.) Anything else?
I strongly dislike it when people just assume a dog is mean just because of their breed.

[MinervaClay]

1.) Do you own a pit bull or a pit bull-type of dog?
Not currently, but I owned a pit mix. Half lab, quarter chow, quarter pit. He was a big, loveable, slobbery, stupid monster.

2.) If yes, then did you train them from a puppy?
Yes.

3.) How do you feel about certain breeds being banned?
Most breeds are banned due to sheer cultural misconception. There are a few breeds that I would like to actually see banned. Pitbulls are not among them.

4.) Do you think pit bulls are dangerous breeds?
No. They're actually incredibly tranquil and loving dogs when raised right. Now what you need to look out for is Dobermans. They can seem like the gentlest, coolest dog in the world until the human-bred restrained skull structure starts squeezing their brain and one day they snap and go nuts.

5.) Why do you think someone might disagree with you?
People have been trained into the modern myth of the pitbull, rather than the fact that it used to be the famous nanny dog.

6.) Have you ever been attacked by a dog or know someone who has?
Yes, my dog's father. He was lab/chow, the pit came from his mother who was the sweetest thing in the world. I've also been "attacked" by small breeds of dog, but that's usually more comical than anything. They do mean to hurt you, though.

7.) Anything else?
The highest level of biting comes from small dog breeds. If we went by amount of times a species bit someone, versus amount of drama made when they actually do, Dachsunds and Chihuahuas would be banned. You think I'm joking. I'm not. Look up the statistics.
Also, people just have a messed up idea of what a pitbull even is. The average "pitbull" report is usually one of any dozen breeds of dog, sometimes things that comically don't even look vaguely like pits.
What I want to see most done away with is AKC standard. The German Shepherd has been literally crippled by these standards, compared to their actual german counterparts. And they're not alone in this. AKC breeding is horrific.

[Grizz]

4.) Do you think pit bulls are dangerous breeds?
No. They're actually incredibly tranquil and loving dogs when raised right. Now what you need to look out for is Dobermans. They can seem like the gentlest, coolest dog in the world until the human-bred restrained skull structure starts squeezing their brain and one day they snap and go nuts.

Could you please provide a link stating this as fact because from what I know, that's a myth that I really wish people would quit throwing around as fact. That's no better than people saying pit bulls have locking jaws.

[Tekla]

4.) Do you think pit bulls are dangerous breeds?
No. They're actually incredibly tranquil and loving dogs when raised right. Now what you need to look out for is Dobermans. They can seem like the gentlest, coolest dog in the world until the human-bred restrained skull structure starts squeezing their brain and one day they snap and go nuts.

Could you please provide a link stating this as fact because from what I know, that's a myth that I really wish people would quit throwing around as fact. That's no better than people saying pit bulls have locking jaws.

The part about the skull causing brain squeezing is a characteristic of the Cavalier King Charles spaniel. This condition (syringomyelia) is pretty rare in other breeds though, from what I understand.

Dobermans, were, however, originally bred with some aggression because they were originally used as working and guard dogs, although (at least in America) the aggression has been somewhat bred out.

[MinervaClay]

As someone who's personally witnessed a fine and dandy Doberman lose its gorramn mind and then stay like it, no, it's not a myth.

Dobermans don't have the same structure as a golden retriever. The site implies if any canine's head stops growing his brain does, but--well, above, the Spaniel is listed as even defying that.

This is a doberman skull.

I can't find an overhead one, but this is a golden retriever skull.

Even seeing the retriever from the side, there's obviously a lot more depth to their skull, even if both skulls are considered dolicocephalic.

The condition you're talking about is different from dobermans. They suffer skull pressure, and a high propensity of brain tumors. Dobermans have a very high incident of these. Dobermans are specifically predisposed to germ cell tumors affecting their pituitary gland. It roots in during embryonic phases, and surfaces through development typically between years 3-5 of the dog's life and can result in--wait for it--increased aggression. People fail to recognize that tumors are one of the leading killers of dobermans and again -- wait for it -- brain tumors are the primary one. Vestibular disease often ends up producing strange behavior and confusion and equally odd behavior in the dog, as well.

They also are predisposed to other neurological disorders, such as narcolepsy, sensory neuronopathy (strange sensations, shocks, and in late stages the loss of basic neural recognition), nervous-system oriented deafness, and then other weird ones like Dancing Doberman Disease.

Doberman side-head.


We don't know exactly what was bred into the original Pinschers, but we believe today the German Pincher, the Old German Shepherd, the Beauceron and the Rottweiler were big parts of it, as well as Greyhound, Great Dane, and a few terriers and pointers.

Most Dobermans come from a very select genetic group, as the breed was nearly lost after WWII. Meaning the genetic pool is actually pretty limited, unless you get something like a "Warlock Doberman", which actually isn't a full bred doberman these days. And ironically they're considered distasteful to AKC-standard breeders.

I understand people are quick to try to defend a breed, but there is a series of legitimate problems with the brain/nervous center of a doberman and people generally only read or cite half of a fact to try to disprove something spoken against them. I don't like the breed. It isn't the breed's fault. But frankly, I don't like German Shepherds, either. Beautiful breed, well natured dog, but absolutely crippled because of what we've done to them. And the AKC breeders/judges have honestly stated that they feel that wobble legged and crooked gaited shepherds are how the breed should be and look and is just fine, rather than their ancestral true german counterparts. Breed standards are generally grotesque.

[TheDemonInside]

1.) Do you own a pit bull or a pit bull-type of dog?
No, parents won't allow me to own one.

2.) If yes, then did you train them from a puppy?
~

3.) How do you feel about certain breeds being banned?
I feel that this is wrong. I feel that if someone wants a specific breed, are capable of taking care of it, and will treat it right, they should be able to own it. Bans result from the actions of a few, and it is wrong to punish the many for the actions of the one.

4.) Do you think pit bulls are dangerous breeds?
I believe they are more apt to become dangerous than some other dogs, but it all depends on how they are raised. Variances within breed and animal can be great, but their is no such thing as a 'danger breed' to me.

5.) Why do you think someone might disagree with you?
Pitbulls have been raised by many people to BE aggressive towards other animals, sometimes at the use of a signal. Once trained for this, the dog the becomes a ticking-time bomb, and if it gets lose may attack other dogs or people. Pits, German Shepherds, and Huskies tend to be more used in training for fighting type scenarios due to their builds. You wouldn't want to put a Dotson against a Shepherd. Thus, since they were and are used (and when they got out and attacked more) they became 'danger breeds.'

6.) Have you ever been attacked by a dog or know someone who has?
Yes, but I actually find little dogs, (Dotsons, Dashounds, Shih Tzus, ECT) actually bit more, but do less damage and are overlooked.

7.) Anything else?
I've owned a Husky-Wolf mix and a Lab Rotwhiler mix. Both dogs were sweet as can be, unless you tried to harm someone they knew. Insurance companies refused to insure us because of them, even though they were the sweetest things.

[Tekla]

The condition you're talking about is different from dobermans. They suffer skull pressure, and a high propensity of brain tumors. Dobermans have a very high incident of these. Dobermans are specifically predisposed to germ cell tumors affecting their pituitary gland. It roots in during embryonic phases, and surfaces through development typically between years 3-5 of the dog's life and can result in--wait for it--increased aggression. People fail to recognize that tumors are one of the leading killers of dobermans and again -- wait for it -- brain tumors are the primary one. Vestibular disease often ends up producing strange behavior and confusion and equally odd behavior in the dog, as well.

They also are predisposed to other neurological disorders, such as narcolepsy, sensory neuronopathy (strange sensations, shocks, and in late stages the loss of basic neural recognition), nervous-system oriented deafness, and then other weird ones like Dancing Doberman Disease.

Dobermans do not randomly suffer "skull pressure", and the same goes for any dog. Pressure being put on the brain is due to trauma (that leads to brain swelling, which leads to the pressure on the brain as it swells within the confines of the skull) or pressure put on the brain from a secondary source like a tumour.

Pressure being put on the brain does not always make something lose its mind. Yes, pressure on, or damage to, certain parts of the brain can change behaviour, but this is far from a guarantee. It's probably more likely to have a training-related behavioural problem - dobermans, like many dogs, need a firm hand.

As for vestibular disease, the site I looked at for information on it says that "attitude is usually normal but some animals may be anxious and disoriented. With central disease, animals may be more lethargic to profoundly depressed. More severe alterations in mental awareness such as stupor and coma signal brain stem involvement." It doesn't say anything specific about aggression.

Dobermans don't have the same structure as a golden retriever. The site implies if any canine's head stops growing his brain does, but--well, above, the Spaniel is listed as even defying that.

The site does not say its brain keeps growing. The idea that the brain keeps growing is very much false.

The brain stops growing when the head does. The CKC Spaniel has a problem with SKULL size, not brain size. The skull of the CKC Spaniel is small - the brain is normal. However, because the brain is normal sized and the skull is too small, the brain can sometimes herniate through the foramen magnum, leading to chiari/syringomyelia.

As for skull size, when you look at anatomical drawings of retrievers and dobermans in the same position (profile) neither one looks significantly larger than the other. http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m417 ... eton-1.jpg http://www.vonroth.com.au/images/anatom ... l-side.gif`

We are aware that some breeds have more problems than others. But those problems are not a guarantee of behavioural problems and those problems are not even necessarily a cause of behavioural issues. All behavioural issues should be evaluated by a vet/trainer, and that goes for ALL dogs, not just pitbulls and dobermans.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
And to be somewhat more on topic...

6.) Have you ever been attacked by a dog or know someone who has?
Yes, but I actually find little dogs, (Dotsons, Dashounds, Shih Tzus, ECT) actually bit more, but do less damage and are overlooked.

Small dogs do tend to bite more than larger dogs. It's the whole reason why, if I ever own a dog of my own, I won't own a dog whose shoulders are lower than my knee.

5.) Why do you think someone might disagree with you?
Pitbulls have been raised by many people to BE aggressive towards other animals, sometimes at the use of a signal. Once trained for this, the dog the becomes a ticking-time bomb, and if it gets lose may attack other dogs or people.

Pitbulls are a popular fighting dog, unfortunately, that's why people try to train them to be aggressive - so they'll win fights. :/

[MinervaClay]

The condition you're talking about is different from dobermans. They suffer skull pressure, and a high propensity of brain tumors. Dobermans have a very high incident of these. Dobermans are specifically predisposed to germ cell tumors affecting their pituitary gland. It roots in during embryonic phases, and surfaces through development typically between years 3-5 of the dog's life and can result in--wait for it--increased aggression. People fail to recognize that tumors are one of the leading killers of dobermans and again -- wait for it -- brain tumors are the primary one. Vestibular disease often ends up producing strange behavior and confusion and equally odd behavior in the dog, as well.

They also are predisposed to other neurological disorders, such as narcolepsy, sensory neuronopathy (strange sensations, shocks, and in late stages the loss of basic neural recognition), nervous-system oriented deafness, and then other weird ones like Dancing Doberman Disease.

Dobermans do not randomly suffer "skull pressure", and the same goes for any dog. Pressure being put on the brain is due to trauma (that leads to brain swelling, which leads to the pressure on the brain as it swells within the confines of the skull) or pressure put on the brain from a secondary source like a tumour.

Pressure being put on the brain does not always make something lose its mind. Yes, pressure on, or damage to, certain parts of the brain can change behaviour, but this is far from a guarantee. It's probably more likely to have a training-related behavioural problem - dobermans, like many dogs, need a firm hand.

As for vestibular disease, the site I looked at for information on it says that "attitude is usually normal but some animals may be anxious and disoriented. With central disease, animals may be more lethargic to profoundly depressed. More severe alterations in mental awareness such as stupor and coma signal brain stem involvement." It doesn't say anything specific about aggression.

Dobermans don't have the same structure as a golden retriever. The site implies if any canine's head stops growing his brain does, but--well, above, the Spaniel is listed as even defying that.

The site does not say its brain keeps growing. The idea that the brain keeps growing is very much false.

The brain stops growing when the head does. The CKC Spaniel has a problem with SKULL size, not brain size. The skull of the CKC Spaniel is small - the brain is normal. However, because the brain is normal sized and the skull is too small, the brain can sometimes herniate through the foramen magnum, leading to chiari/syringomyelia.

As for skull size, when you look at anatomical drawings of retrievers and dobermans in the same position (profile) neither one looks significantly larger than the other. http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m417 ... eton-1.jpg http://www.vonroth.com.au/images/anatom ... l-side.gif`

We are aware that some breeds have more problems than others. But those problems are not a guarantee of behavioural problems and those problems are not even necessarily a cause of behavioural issues. All behavioural issues should be evaluated by a vet/trainer, and that goes for ALL dogs, not just pitbulls and dobermans.

You're sort of editing your way around my points. You looked up one issue, but not the cancers which--let's review--put pressure on the brain and lead to aggression (which is DOCUMENTED if you look up the effect of the cancer, not one of the other random points I referenced) and are the #1 killer of dobermans.

There is no erasing that fact.

[TNHawke]

No need to get snarky and defensive. She was just pointing out what appears to be a fallacy, or inconsistency in one part of your statement, she was never trying to refute all of it, which is why the cancers were not touched on.

5.) Why do you think someone might disagree with you?
People have been trained into the modern myth of the pitbull, rather than the fact that it used to be the famous nanny dog.

Do you have any back up for this? I've seen this tossed around in the past couple of years, mostly on Facebook, but the only thing I've seen to document it is a single black and white photo of a pitty type breed next to a baby.
The only historical "nanny" dog I am familiar with is the Newfoundland.

[Tekla]

I didn't mention cancers specifically, but I did touch on tumours and that the pressure they can put on certain areas of the brain CAN cause behavioural issues, but that it isn't a guarantee.

TNHawke -

Everything I seem to be finding when I google that is biased in one way or the other.

However, according to this site pit bulls can be quite good with children (but I suppose the same is/can be also true for any well-socialized dog?).

Assuming we're talking about the American Pit Bull Terrier (since there are other breeds classified under the banner term of "pit bull"), wiki says this (scroll down to "temperament"):
"The essential characteristics of the American Pit Bull Terrier are strength, confidence, and zest for life. This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm. APBTs make excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children. Because most APBTs exhibit some level of dog aggression and because of its powerful physique, the APBT requires an owner who will carefully socialize and obedience train the dog. The breed’s natural agility makes it one of the most capable canine climbers so good fencing is a must for this breed. The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable. This breed does very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work.[7]"