Legalization of marijuana

[shunn6653]

I don't actually smoke, neither marijuana or cigarettes, but I'm for legalization. I mean people are gonna be smoking marijuana regardless of legal status or not. legalizing will allow the government enforce more control, applying taxes and regulations that will significantly lower drug related crimes, not to mention illegal trafficking. and if marijuana is legalize, it'll allow law enforcement to focus on more dangerous drugs like cocaine and meth.

[XornzerSkooma]

I don't actually smoke, neither marijuana or cigarettes, but I'm for legalization. I mean people are gonna be smoking marijuana regardless of legal status or not. legalizing will allow the government enforce more control, applying taxes and regulations that will significantly lower drug related crimes, not to mention illegal trafficking. and if marijuana is legalize, it'll allow law enforcement to focus on more dangerous drugs like cocaine and meth.

I agree. The alcohol prohibition of the 20s didn't stop people from drinking, did it? Nope. I had a little talk with someone about legalizing marijuana and they said "well, it negatively effects other people, like alcohol", well even then, still, people will still do it, reguardless. It's pointless to have it illegal really. And from what I've heard from people I know in real life that have really smoked weed, it's not as bad as regular cigarettes, and less often addictive. I personally would like to try it, but I'd rather wait until it gets legalized, if it does. Kind of hard when you have stupid politicians=p The thing that gets me really is... America calls itself the land of the free, right? Well, if it's so free, then how come we're not allowed to have personal liberties such as smoking weed? It's ridiculous if you ask me/:

[Synchronized]

I agree. The alcohol prohibition of the 20s didn't stop people from drinking, did it? Nope.

Just wanted to jump in here and say the Prohibition only prohibited the making and buying of new alcohol. Any alcohol from before it was left alone and just fine.

Anyway, I'm all for legalizing Marijuana. As far as drugs go it's probably one of the safest out there-- and it has quite a bit of health benefits as well. Like someone said before, legalizing it would allow people to control and tax it, and in general, make it safer for people to buy. I'm not going to lie-- I'd rather see people smoking a blunt twice a week than smoking a pack of reds a day.

[wolfeyedangel]

A few logistical points to consider:

1) Marijuana is a mind affecting substance, the over all impact on motor function being no lesser than alchohol, how do you propose to test for and enforce laws against driving high? (Which does happen, even now, and would likely become more prevalent if Marijuana became more readily available.)
2) How would 'second hand' Marijuana be handled were it legalized... it is an intoxicating substance even second hand which means someone who did not wish to smoke it can be contaminated and have ill effects because someone was carelessly smoking it at the work place or in an apartment complex, would it be handled like cigarettes or alcohol? What combination of precedents would seem appropriate? Given that smokers throw fits at the current restrictions, how will this impact those regulations? (note: if you've ever lived in an apartment next door to a smoker unless there is no inter-connection between apartments in a block have experienced how easily smoke can travel so regulations.) The people who were impaired in this manner might not even realize they are impaired until it was much too late, what legal recourse would they have to avoid a drug they do not, themselves, wish to take?

~Wolf, as Devil's Advocate

[LittleFireCat]

A few logistical points to consider:

1) Marijuana is a mind affecting substance, the over all impact on motor function being no lesser than alchohol, how do you propose to test for and enforce laws against driving high? (Which does happen, even now, and would likely become more prevalent if Marijuana became more readily available.)
2) How would 'second hand' Marijuana be handled were it legalized... it is an intoxicating substance even second hand which means someone who did not wish to smoke it can be contaminated and have ill effects because someone was carelessly smoking it at the work place or in an apartment complex, would it be handled like cigarettes or alcohol? What combination of precedents would seem appropriate? Given that smokers throw fits at the current restrictions, how will this impact those regulations? (note: if you've ever lived in an apartment next door to a smoker unless there is no inter-connection between apartments in a block have experienced how easily smoke can travel so regulations.) The people who were impaired in this manner might not even realize they are impaired until it was much too late, what legal recourse would they have to avoid a drug they do not, themselves, wish to take?

~Wolf, as Devil's Advocate

1) Considering that driving high is already a crime(in most of places), the police are already doing their best to enforce the laws and test individuals for drugs in their systems so that they can be charged with impaired driving. The numbers of individuals testing positive for drugs other than alcohol in their systems has risen in recent years, without legalization. And so the ability to test for these drugs in individuals with erratic driving has become easier, although these tests are far from being able to detect how much is in a person's system, chances are if driving ability has been effected to such an extent that they would be pulled over, it's probably too much.

2) A growing number of individuals who take marijuana for medical reasons are moving away from smoking it. They are instead turning towards methods that have little to no effect on those around them, such as vaporization and ingestion. Vaporization involves heating the marijuana at such a high temperature that the marijuana doesn't simply burn, but it is vaporized. The product from this has a higher concentration of the THC, without the damaging effect of the smoke. The product of the vaporization is collected in a plastic bag, which the user then inhales from. No other parties in the room/area would be effected needlessly. Ingestion involves putting the marijuana into food products for the consumption of the user, this can be done in many ways, and the user is generally very careful about who eats the food products with their medication in. Of course that doesn't bar someone from accidentally ingesting the laced food products, but accidental ingestion of medications buy non-intended individuals has been a problem since we have had medication. I would feel that the smoking laws which effect tobacco users would also be in effect for those who wish to smoke marijuana, but in general there is a movement away from smoking marijuana and toward alternative use methods which produce better results in general than smoking.

[Morgaln]

I don't actually smoke, neither marijuana or cigarettes, but I'm for legalization. I mean people are gonna be smoking marijuana regardless of legal status or not. legalizing will allow the government enforce more control, applying taxes and regulations that will significantly lower drug related crimes, not to mention illegal trafficking. and if marijuana is legalize, it'll allow law enforcement to focus on more dangerous drugs like cocaine and meth.

I agree. The alcohol prohibition of the 20s didn't stop people from drinking, did it? Nope. I had a little talk with someone about legalizing marijuana and they said "well, it negatively effects other people, like alcohol", well even then, still, people will still do it, reguardless. It's pointless to have it illegal really. And from what I've heard from people I know in real life that have really smoked weed, it's not as bad as regular cigarettes, and less often addictive. I personally would like to try it, but I'd rather wait until it gets legalized, if it does. Kind of hard when you have stupid politicians=p The thing that gets me really is... America calls itself the land of the free, right? Well, if it's so free, then how come we're not allowed to have personal liberties such as smoking weed? It's ridiculous if you ask me/:

Why do we not have personal liberties like taking stuff we want to have? Or kill people we don't like? By your reasoning, stealing and killing and raping should be allowed, too, because it still happens even though there are laws against it, and therefore it's pointless to have those laws in the first place. Your reasoning comes down to "I want to do it and so I should be allowed to do it".

Personally I think even smoking tobacco should be prohibited; it makes people addicted and it is bad for their health, without any real positive effect. That goes for about every other drug as well, with most of them also having the added negative effect of being mind-affecting and therefore pose added danger if used by people driving. Making marijuana legal will see an increase of people driving high (even if that is illegal), because more people will have access to the stuff in the first place. I can't see any reason to allow any drugs.

I even think the use of alcohol should be cut, although that will not happen. For one people would scream bloody murder if someone so much as hinted at that possibility, for seconds alcohol is used in a lot of products people don't even realize it is used in. Many things that are considered completely safe to eat for even small children have trace amounts of alcohol used as conservative, which already accustoms children to the taste. Check the contents of your sweets some time, you might be surprised...

As for the specific effects of cannabis, it has several dangerous side effects, among them rising blood pressure (which comes with an increased risk for heart attacks), respiratory problems, and at least as much risk to cause cancer, especially lung cancer, as smoking tobacco has. Cannabis also has an inverse effect on learning and memory, which can last for days or even weeks after taking the drug. It also adversely affects the fetus during pregnancy, just as tobacco and alcohol do.
http://alcoholism.about.com/od/pot/a/effects.-Lya.htm
http://drugabuse.gov/infofacts/marijuana.html
In addition, cannabis abuse is linked to developing psychosis and depression, as well as shizophrenia.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 806.x/full
http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal. ... 4/abstract

Finally, cannabis stays in the body for at least several days, possibly several weeks or even months, since it is stored in body fat. During that time, it keeps having negative effects, until it has been removed completely.
http://alcoholism.about.com/od/pot/a/marijuana_test.htm

[wolfeyedangel]

Fredsmith: Would you care to post something more credible than Wikipedia for the scientific proof of how smoking tobacco is more dangerous to your health than Marijuana? And would you also care to elaborate on how the National Institute for Drug Abuse and the official publication of the Society of Biological Psychiatry are improper sources?

A few places that you might find as good starting points:
National Institute on Drug Abuse- (Note: Cancer links are under 'other health effects')
http://drugabuse.gov/infofacts/marijuana.html
http://www.nida.nih.gov/researchreports ... uana3.html

Their site aimed at teens has quite a bit of information if you care to browse it: (that's the link to the health facts)
http://teens.drugabuse.gov/facts/facts_mj2.php

An early article from the Western Journal of Medicine (1993, there will be new information on the topic, full article appears to be available.)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1311782/

The DEA's FAQ on the subject:
http://www.justice.gov/dea/ongoing/marijuana.html

An LA county health department article: This one is a little odd, they do not seem to address the dramatic difference they report in hazards for medical and hazards for recreational use, neither do they address dosage differences that might have lead to these things. But they caution against recreational use, but seem to favor 'unlimited' medical use which makes little scientific sense. They also seem to be unaware of the above listed articles.
http://file.lacounty.gov/bc/q2_2010/cms1_147410.pdf

I recommend at least a quick search on www.google.com/unclesam that should get you to the various health related agencies, and should yield information somewhat more reliable than Wikipedia. Their published findings are also usually a matter of public record so the articles can actually be accessed more readily than in some of the other publications, which require payment for article access.

~Wolfeyedangel

[LittleFireCat]

As for the specific effects of cannabis, it has several dangerous side effects, among them rising blood pressure (which comes with an increased risk for heart attacks), respiratory problems, and at least as much risk to cause cancer, especially lung cancer, as smoking tobacco has. Cannabis also has an inverse effect on learning and memory, which can last for days or even weeks after taking the drug. It also adversely affects the fetus during pregnancy, just as tobacco and alcohol do.
http://alcoholism.about.com/od/pot/a/effects.-Lya.htm
http://drugabuse.gov/infofacts/marijuana.html
In addition, cannabis abuse is linked to developing psychosis and depression, as well as shizophrenia.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 806.x/full
http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal. ... 4/abstract

Risk factor 1, raise in blood pressure, as noted:
According to the World Health Organization, the conclusion reached by the Institute of medicine in 1982 still stands: the smoking of marijuana "causes changes to the heart and circulation that are characteristics of stress ...[but] there is no evidence ... that it exerts a permanently deleterious effect on the normal cardiovascular system ..."

A report released in 2000 stated as conclusion:

From this data, the researchers conclude that the relative risk of a heart attack jumped 4.8 times within the first hour after smoking, then dropped to 1.7 times in the second hour. That’s still double the risk, but the drop indicates that the danger declines rapidly.

Mittleman admits he can’t explain exactly how pot could trigger a heart attack. It might be due to cannabis, the active ingredient of marijuana, or merely the smoke from a burning plant, he says. Smoking marijuana and tobacco both involve the latter, and both are now implicated in raising the risk of heart disease.

The report clearly states that they don't yet know how or why marijuana causes an increase in risk for heart attacks in predisposed individuals, but clearly shows that the risk is short lived. And if the risk itself is related to the inhalation of smoke, which under any circumstance is, in general, unadvised, then it could easily be remedied by using either the vaporization method or the ingestion method of use of marijuana.

Risk factors 2 and 3, respiratory problems and cancer risks as noted:
Smoking marijuana like smoking tobacco cigarettes is known to produce a 'smokers cough'; but then the regular inhalation of smoke is, under any circumstance, ill advised. There are methods to use marijuana other than smoking.
A study published in 2009 stated:

Our study suggests that moderate marijuana use is associated with reduced risk of HNSCC [head and neck squamous cell carcinoma].

And another one published in 2006 states:

Nonetheless, and contrary to our expectations, we found no positive associations between marijuana use and lung or UAT cancers ... Despite several lines of evidence suggesting the biological plausibility of marijuana use being carcinogenic (1), it is possible that marijuana use does not increase cancer risk, as suggested in the recent commentary by Melamede.

Risk factor 4, learning and memory as noted:
The over all effect that marijuana has on the ability to learn and retain new material is small.

However in the case of learning [-.21 99%CI(-.39,-.22)] and forgetting [-.27 99%CI(-.49,-.44)] domains the average effect sizes were found to be significant, albeit of small magnitudes.

A statistically reliable negative effect was observed in the domain of learning and forgetting, suggesting that chronic long-term cannabis use results in a selective memory defect. While the results are compatible with this conclusion, the effect size for both domains was a very small magnitude. The "real life" impact of such a small and selective effect is questionable.

The study is here. It is important to note that this study encompassed mostly heavy long-term marijuana users and the results may not be found in users who don't use the drug as much or as often.

Risk factor 5, pregnancy as noted:
Thalidomide is also well known and documented as causing birth defects, and yet it's still used to treat illness. As are several other medications. There are lots of foods and herbs that pregnant women should avoid as well. Do you suggest that we ban things simply because they are bad for pregnant women?

Risk factor 6, mental illness as noted:
It's difficult to find statistics on the number of individuals who experience psychosis, including schizophrenia because as much as 70% of mental illness goes untreated. But it is generally accepted that 3 in 100 people will develop some form of psychosis. The symptoms don't all come on right away, they develop over months or even years. The risk period of first-episode psychosis is 14 to 35 but is most common in late teens and early 20's. Common risk factors for psychosis include stress, other mental illness such as depression, and genetic history. No high school student can say they don't have stress, and no two people handle stress the same way, indeed some will handle high levels well, while others crumble under what are considered low levels of stress. Genetic predisposition to psychosis is often a parental link, and depending on the particular form of psychosis and how well controlled it may or may not be, that in it of itself may be a source of stress to the individual. There is also a high causation link between stress and depression. It is well known that teens will use marijuana to self medicate for issues such as depression anxiety, stress, sleep difficulties, problems with concentration and physical pain. And there is also a high prevalence of self medication behaviour in individuals with schizophrenia. It is not unreasonable to hypothesize that individuals who are already at a higher risk of developing some form of depression and psychosis, including schizophrenia, may in fact be drawn to use marijuana as a form of self medication to help alleviate their problems; which later lead to psychosis or schizophrenia, or in the case of depression they may have already had unreported episodes which they used marijuana as treatment for.
And this report shows that a population increase in use in marijuana does not result in an increase in psychosis in general.

... the expected rise in diagnoses of schizophrenia and psychoses did not occur over a 10 year period. This study does not therefore support the specific causal link between cannabis use and the incidence of psychotic disorders based on the 3 assumptions described in the Introduction. This concurs with other reports indicating that increases in population cannabis use have not been followed by increases in psychotic incidence (Macleod et al., 2006; Arsenault et al., 2004; Rey and Tennant, 2002).

[Morgaln]

Risk factor 1, raise in blood pressure, as noted:
According to the World Health Organization, the conclusion reached by the Institute of medicine in 1982 still stands: the smoking of marijuana "causes changes to the heart and circulation that are characteristics of stress ...[but] there is no evidence ... that it exerts a permanently deleterious effect on the normal cardiovascular system ..."

A report released in 2000 stated as conclusion:

From this data, the researchers conclude that the relative risk of a heart attack jumped 4.8 times within the first hour after smoking, then dropped to 1.7 times in the second hour. That’s still double the risk, but the drop indicates that the danger declines rapidly.

Mittleman admits he can’t explain exactly how pot could trigger a heart attack. It might be due to cannabis, the active ingredient of marijuana, or merely the smoke from a burning plant, he says. Smoking marijuana and tobacco both involve the latter, and both are now implicated in raising the risk of heart disease.

The report clearly states that they don't yet know how or why marijuana causes an increase in risk for heart attacks in predisposed individuals, but clearly shows that the risk is short lived. And if the risk itself is related to the inhalation of smoke, which under any circumstance is, in general, unadvised, then it could easily be remedied by using either the vaporization method or the ingestion method of use of marijuana.

So the heart attack risk is short-lived; that will certainly be a relief for those who do get a heart attack after taking marijuana. Even if the vaporization method is less dangerous, that doesn't mean it is without risk, and it also doesn't mean everyone will use it. Most people will still smoke it instead, especially since unfortunately, smoking is still considered 'cool' in our society.

Risk factors 2 and 3, respiratory problems and cancer risks as noted:
Smoking marijuana like smoking tobacco cigarettes is known to produce a 'smokers cough'; but then the regular inhalation of smoke is, under any circumstance, ill advised. There are methods to use marijuana other than smoking.
A study published in 2009 stated:

Our study suggests that moderate marijuana use is associated with reduced risk of HNSCC [head and neck squamous cell carcinoma].

And another one published in 2006 states:

Nonetheless, and contrary to our expectations, we found no positive associations between marijuana use and lung or UAT cancers ... Despite several lines of evidence suggesting the biological plausibility of marijuana use being carcinogenic (1), it is possible that marijuana use does not increase cancer risk, as suggested in the recent commentary by Melamede.

Again, marijuana will still be smoked, even if other methods are available.

Risk factor 4, learning and memory as noted:
The over all effect that marijuana has on the ability to learn and retain new material is small.

However in the case of learning [-.21 99%CI(-.39,-.22)] and forgetting [-.27 99%CI(-.49,-.44)] domains the average effect sizes were found to be significant, albeit of small magnitudes.

A statistically reliable negative effect was observed in the domain of learning and forgetting, suggesting that chronic long-term cannabis use results in a selective memory defect. While the results are compatible with this conclusion, the effect size for both domains was a very small magnitude. The "real life" impact of such a small and selective effect is questionable.

The study is here. It is important to note that this study encompassed mostly heavy long-term marijuana users and the results may not be found in users who don't use the drug as much or as often.

The effect on learning and memory is still there. Perhaps it doesn't have much impact, and yet it might. Legalizing marijuana will make it more easily available for everyone, including children and teenagers who wouldn't be old enough to get it themselves; I doubt there are any studies on how marijuana would affect those, but I'm rather sure it would affect them stronger.

Risk factor 5, pregnancy as noted:
Thalidomide is also well known and documented as causing birth defects, and yet it's still used to treat illness. As are several other medications. There are lots of foods and herbs that pregnant women should avoid as well. Do you suggest that we ban things simply because they are bad for pregnant women?[/quote]

First of all, you yourself stated this is risk factor 5 I stated, which invalidates your last sentence. It is not just because it is bad for pregnant women, but it is one more factor. If I understand that website correctly, Thalidomide is a medication that is prescribed, not freely available. And yes, I suggest that we do ban things that are bad for pregnant women, if they can hurt them passively. That goes for smoking just as much as marijuana.

Risk factor 6, mental illness as noted:
It's difficult to find statistics on the number of individuals who experience psychosis, including schizophrenia because as much as 70% of mental illness goes untreated. But it is generally accepted that 3 in 100 people will develop some form of psychosis. The symptoms don't all come on right away, they develop over months or even years. The risk period of first-episode psychosis is 14 to 35 but is most common in late teens and early 20's. Common risk factors for psychosis include stress, other mental illness such as depression, and genetic history. No high school student can say they don't have stress, and no two people handle stress the same way, indeed some will handle high levels well, while others crumble under what are considered low levels of stress. Genetic predisposition to psychosis is often a parental link, and depending on the particular form of psychosis and how well controlled it may or may not be, that in it of itself may be a source of stress to the individual. There is also a high causation link between stress and depression. It is well known that teens will use marijuana to self medicate for issues such as depression anxiety, stress, sleep difficulties, problems with concentration and physical pain. And there is also a high prevalence of self medication behaviour in individuals with schizophrenia. It is not unreasonable to hypothesize that individuals who are already at a higher risk of developing some form of depression and psychosis, including schizophrenia, may in fact be drawn to use marijuana as a form of self medication to help alleviate their problems; which later lead to psychosis or schizophrenia, or in the case of depression they may have already had unreported episodes which they used marijuana as treatment for.
And this report shows that a population increase in use in marijuana does not result in an increase in psychosis in general.

... the expected rise in diagnoses of schizophrenia and psychoses did not occur over a 10 year period. This study does not therefore support the specific causal link between cannabis use and the incidence of psychotic disorders based on the 3 assumptions described in the Introduction. This concurs with other reports indicating that increases in population cannabis use have not been followed by increases in psychotic incidence (Macleod et al., 2006; Arsenault et al., 2004; Rey and Tennant, 2002).

Stress is contributing to developing psychosis; you yourself posted evidence earlier that marijuana causes the same reactions in the cardiovascular system as stress, i. e. it is putting stress on your body. I earlier posted links to papers that come to the conclusion that marijuana does increase the risk for psychosis. Obviously the scientific community is undecided, but do we have to take the risk?


In the end, most of what you posted comes down to 'all the effects exists, but some studies say they are negligible'. The question is on which studies to believe, and whether one should take the risk to unban a mind-altering substance that can lead to addiction. There's also the question on where to draw the line. Once marijuana will be unbanned, people will soon ask to unban more illegal substances. You'll have a precedent that will make it more difficult to keep other drugs banned.

[shunn6653]

And yes, I suggest that we do ban things that are bad for pregnant women, if they can hurt them passively. That goes for smoking just as much as marijuana.

while noble, i don't think legally banning women from buying or using certain products or objects while pregnant is advisable, it'll trample numerous rights! the system is fine as it is, doctors advise and women decided wether or not to heed their advice.

Legalizing marijuana will make it more easily available for everyone, including children and teenagers who wouldn't be old enough to get it themselves; I doubt there are any studies on how marijuana would affect those, but I'm rather sure it would affect them stronger.

I assume that it'll be handled much like alcohol. i admit that while it's not impossible, it's definitely difficult for underaged drinkers to get their hands on the substance. the point is that law enforcement does it's best to prevent kids from drinking, and they will most likely do the same with marijuana if it's legalized.

In the end, most of what you posted comes down to 'all the effects exists, but some studies say they are negligible'. The question is on which studies to believe, and whether one should take the risk to unban a mind-altering substance that can lead to addiction. There's also the question on where to draw the line. Once marijuana will be unbanned, people will soon ask to unban more illegal substances. You'll have a precedent that will make it more difficult to keep other drugs banned.

I personally think that every illegal substance should be heavily studied before it's legal status is even brought to consideration, i mean obviously there are certain drugs with such strong effects that one would have to be delusional to even think there's a chance for legalization, but i think marijuana isn't one of them.